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US Election 2024 Postmortem

And postmortem is a good word for it, with many Americans and others across the globe feeling like they’ve died and gone to hell.  For whatever reason, on November 5th, more than half the US voting electorate chose to once again turn over the keys of the White House to Donald Trump, a convicted felon awaiting sentencing on 34 criminal counts, with three more criminal cases pending, an individual adjudicated guilty of fraud, liable for sexual abuse and defamation, a serial sexual predator who has declared bankruptcy multiple times, who spews hate, racism, invective and misogyny with every breath.  And this time, Trump achieved a feat he hadn’t before – he won, not just by the antiquated machinery of the Electoral College, but with an outright majority of votes, having lost that measure by three million votes in 2016 and seven million votes in 2020.  Shame on us.

Trump justifiably can (and will) claim a mandate for his Christian Nationalist Project 2025 agenda, which includes a national abortion ban; apprehension and deportation of up to 12 million undocumented residents; the firing of thousands of career federal employees, to be replaced with Trump loyalists; an unprecedented increase in presidential powers, including direct control of the Department of Justice by the President; the implementation of a national sales tax; abolition of the Federal Reserve; further reductions in the corporate tax rate; elimination of the Department of Education; the abandonment of strategies to reduce greenhouse gas emissions responsible for climate change (as well as the eradication of climate change references from absolutely everywhere); revocation of Medicare’s ability to negotiate drug prices with pharmaceutical manufacturers; per capita limits on lifetime health benefits via Medicaid; defunding of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting; removing protections against discrimination on the basis of sexual or gender identity (even requiring public school teachers who want to use a transgender student’s preferred pronouns to obtain written permission from the student’s legal guardian); and a ban on pornography, with criminal prosecution for those who produce it.  Just for starters.

Armed with his mandate, his Project 2025 blueprint, and a get-out-of-jail-free card from his compliant Supreme Court, who knows what havoc Donald Trump may reap in the next four years.  Come to think of it, why stop there?  In 2018 Trump congratulated Xi Jinping for being designated “president for life,” praising the Chinese Communist Party for making it so.  “I think it’s great,” opined Trump.  “Maybe we’ll have to give that a shot someday.”

That day has arrived.

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“I want you! (to get the hell out of my country),” a victorious Donald Trump seems to be saying. His upset victory came with Uranus, arbiter or shocks and surprises, conjunct his Midheaven ruling career, and asteroid Nike, named for the Greek Goddess of victory, conjunct his Ascendant

As I noted in my pre-election analysis, this competition was going to be an extremely close one, as reflected in a series of celestial pluses and minuses, affecting both candidates.  I felt Kamala Harris had a slight edge, but that may have been wishful thinking.  Hindsight is 20/20, so let’s take a look again at what turned out to be the deciding factors, before the Orangeshirts come to take me away.

We had asteroid Troemper 28130 at 9 Leo, conjoined by both asteroid Champion 8732 at 2 Leo and asteroid Losse 340579 (phonetic match for “loss”) at 3 Leo.  Talk about your mixed cosmic messages!  With Losse slightly closer to Troemper, and powerfully embedded at station, I gave it precedence over Champion, but I neglected to rate Champion’s relative strength in Trump’s natal chart.  At 21 Libra, Champion exactly conjoins asteroid Toro 1685, a point noted for brutish, bullying behaviors, machismo, and toxic masculinity.  It’s a clear sign that Trump’s patented brand of intimidation and aggression could be a winning strategy.  As well, Toro is at station, making it a pivotal element of Trump’s character, and Champion is almost at station, having turned direct the week before Trump’s birth, at the prior degree.

Another twist of fate is here as well.  With asteroids d’Arrest 9133 and TRIUMF 14959 both at station from 24 Libra, incredibly, and counterintuitively, Trump’s arrests, trials and convictions appear to have furthered his cause, cementing the affections of his rabid MAGA base, who adopted Trump’s assertions that his legal prosecutions were, in fact, persecutions.  After each indictment, each court appearance, each guilty verdict, his poll numbers went up.  Again, d’Arrest/TRIUMF inextricably bound is a signal that a low point (which most people would consider criminal indictments to be) could produce a resounding success (TRIUMF).

Under the umbrella of all this cosmic mishigas is the greatest gasbag of them all (even greater than Trump), which is Jupiter, arbiter of expansion, increase, good luck, fortune and positive outcomes.  At 17 Libra, Jupiter is also at station, turning direct the very day of Trump’s birth, barely three hours later.  The power of this placement is incalculable, allowing this supreme fuck-up to avoid all consequences for his acts, prosper from every loss, and forever “fail up,” emerging from every crisis smelling like a rose (and suntan oil).

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Kamala Harris concedes, the day after the election; with asteroid Harris conjunct Uranus, enthusiasm for her candidacy was high, but turncoat Uranus pulled out the political rug from under her feet at the last minute, also conjunct her natal Jupiter (politics) and squared natal Saturn (career)

With asteroid Karma 3811 locked in an embrace with asteroid Troemper for more than two years, it appeared for awhile as if Donald Trump might finally face the music and be called to account for his actions, but that was a false hope.  Fate tinkered with him on the margins, in the form of lost civil suit judgments which cost him upwards of half a billion dollars (cagily recouped from his gullible followers as “campaign contributions”) and a 34-count criminal conviction, but it was just a game of cat-and-mouse.  It’s impossible now that, as president-elect, Trump will serve time for his convictions when he is sentenced on November 26th; one of the remaining three federal criminal cases has already been dismissed by a Trump appointee judge, and the others will undoubtedly end with the firing of Special Counsel Jack Smith, which will be Job One as soon as Trump once again crosses the Oval Office threshold. 

But I digress.  The other Troemper factor that I failed to properly rate was the square to the Sun at 13 Scorpio.  Solar contacts are tricky things.  They can work for or against one, depending on the circumstances.  What they do, in essence, is to highlight, throwing a bright beacon on whatever the Sun illuminates with its touch.  And there’s no doubt that Trump was illuminated. 

For or against, this election was all about him; Kamala Harris was just a footnote, a blank space for the anti-Trump alliance to coalesce.  And Trump was vividly on display, especially in the final weeks of the campaign – the misogyny, the racism, the crudeness, the wrath, the vindictiveness, the anger; as well as the mental decline, the rambling, the incoherence, the evasion, the downright duplicity – all in full view.  Bereft of a solar connection of her own, Kamala Harris was always in his shadow, but putting the focus on Trump’s manifest unfitness seemed the right way to go.  After all, who in their right mind could watch that display and think, ‘yup, he’s the one, all right!’?  Apparently, some 70 million Americans.

They were cheated, defrauded, deceived, and this is celestially represented by Troemper’s opposition to an exact pairing of asteroids America 916 and Bilk 4425, at 12 Aquarius, also squared the Sun, forming a T-Square.  This puts Americans’ gullibility and susceptibility to a con artist in the spotlight as well.  With asteroid Truth 249521 nearby at 17 Aquarius, I had hoped my countrymen would see through the Trump façade, but instead, they only saw Trump’s Truth – of a broken, declining, devastated America, desperately in need of his rescue, as encapsulated in asteroid Darksky 21073 at 18 Aquarius, closely conjoined Truth and also conjunct asteroid Donn 4689 at 21 Aquarius, a second asteroid referent for The Donald. 

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The contest between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump was foreshadowed by asteroid Donn squared asteroid Harris; with Damocles and Uranus also in the mix, there was an inherent doom (Damocles) overhanging this unpredictable (Uranus) election

Indeed, the skies on the Trump horizon were dark, and the dystopian picture painted by him throughout his campaign, but especially in its last weeks, of an America brought low by the powers that be, struck a nerve with a disgruntled electorate.  In addition, Donn is broadly squared the Sun as well, conveying more attention, while edging up on the US natal Moon, its people, at 27 Aquarius, granting that “common touch.”

This T-Square becomes a Grand Cross with the inclusion of asteroid Washingtonia 886 at 15 Taurus, opposing the Sun and squared the Troemper/America axis.  This establishes DC as the field of engagement in this contest for control of the federal government (Washingtonia).  Also here is asteroid Christian 192158 at 11 Taurus, identifying a core constituency of Trump’s coalition, with evangelical fundamentalist Christians overwhelmingly supporting this twice-divorced, porn-star-soliciting, serial adulterer and sexual assaulter.  Go figure.  The same people who wanted to toss out Bill Clinton for a blowjob off the Oval Office are now content, even enthused, to vote for this excrescence. 

Before leaving this pattern, I want to discuss the placement of asteroid Apatheia 8273, closely conjunct the Sun from 14 Scorpio.  Apatheia represents apathy, which was a genuine issue as the contours of the 2024 presidential election began to form.  Upwards of 75% of Americans viewed the prospect of a Trump/Biden rematch with distaste, a sign that many would vote to remain with butts firmly planted on couches, and skip the process altogether.  Both Trump and Biden had connections to this point, Biden as asteroid Josephina 303 (a feminine form of Joseph), exactly conjoined Apatheia, while Troemper at 9 Leo was in square.  The exact conjunction indicated to me that Biden would be the focus of voters’ indifference, but once he withdrew, only Troemper was left on the field, with no connection from a Harris asteroid, arguing for a lack of enthusiasm from his supporters.  And indeed, enthusiasm for Harris’ campaign was infectious, with Harris conjunct excitement-provoking Uranus throughout her truncated campaign, but overall, Apatheia still reared its ugly head, with 14 million less Americans voting in 2024, than had in 2020.

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Donald Trump not only won the Electoral College, he also captured the popular vote, for the first time in three consecutive elections; asteroid America exactly conjunct asteroid Bilk, opposed asteroid Troemper, tells the tale of a US populace deceived by a con man

Trump’s passage to the White House has always been facilitated by natal Mercury conjoined asteroid Donn, at 8 and 7 Cancer respectively, opposing natal asteroid Whitehouse 4036 (the presidency) at 4 Capricorn.  Donn/Mercury grants the gift of speaking authentically; even when what is said is pure lies (as facilitated by Neptune, planetary ruler of deception, on the fulcrum of a T-Square to this polarity, from 5 Libra), it has the appearance of being genuine, from the speaker’s heart. 

Mercury also represents populism, Trump’s main avenue to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, and his disguise (also Neptune) as a savior (Neptune again) of the people served him well in 2016.  In 2020, amidst the wreck of the covid pandemic, the bloom was off the rose, and Trump lost convincingly, but in 2024 he came surging back, with the assistance of transit asteroid Whitehouse at 4 Libra, conjoined natal Neptune and reigniting the natal T-Square in real time, doubling down on his dark fantasies and the falsehoods he used to craft his alternate reality (Neptune one more time).

In the final month before the election, Trump’s rhetoric became grimmer and bleaker, encouraged by the alignment of asteroid Grimm 6912, which began on October 1st.  At that time, Grimm moved to agitate the natal T-Square from early Capricorn, conjoined natal Whitehouse, and aided and abetted by TNO Chaos 19521 in opposition at 3 Cancer, conjoined natal Donn/Mercury, helping Trump paint his picture of American turmoil, pandemonium and anarchy (all Chaos keywords) in tones realistically vivid, whatever the reality.

We need to speak also about “winning” asteroids Nike 307 and Victoria 12; Nike is named for the Greek goddess of victory, and Victoria is her Roman counterpart (as well as the root of our word “victory”).  In the Election Day chart, Nike at 1 Virgo is squared Mercury at 3 Sagittarius, ruling the decision-making process, the Media and the vote itself.  Mercury is conjoined by Victoria at 8 Sagittarius.  True, Victoria is trine Troemper at 9 Leo (and opposed Trump’s natal Troemper at 2 Sagittarius, a factor I missed completely), but with asteroid Demokritos 6129 (for Democrats) widely conjunct Nike from 10 Virgo and asteroid Camelia 957 (one of several celestial markers for Kamala, for which there is no exact match) at 10 Sagittarius closely conjunct Victoria, I considered this a major plus for Harris and Democrats generally.

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Elon Musk’s million-dollar lottery for newly registered voters is surely a manifestation of asteroid Buysballot (electoral fraud) squared Mercury (the vote), a literal representation of “buys ballot,” but was there more to this point’s influence than that? Asteroid Swindle conjunct Mercury says there might be.

But I was troubled.  The presence of asteroids Buysballot 10961 (indicating electoral fraud) at 2 Virgo and Loke 4862 (named for the Norse Trickster god) at 6 Virgo, conjunct Nike, and asteroid Swindle 8690 (again suggesting fraud) at 4 Sagittarius, conjunct Mercury/Victoria, was an indicator of potential electoral shenanigans.  I assumed at the time this was reflection of Trump’s undoubted stance after defeat, that he would claim a rigged election, as he did in 2020. 

Now I’m not so sure.  Buysballot has already surfaced in this electoral cycle, in the form of Trump supporter Elon Musk’s million-dollar lottery for newly registered voters – literally, “buying the ballot.”  But I’m thinking back now to Trump’s many assertions early on that he didn’t need his supporters’ votes to win (though he changed his tune on this toward the end), and viewing the massive scope of his victory (he exceeded his 2020 margins in more than 90% of US counties), and wondering if, in fact, the fix was in.

For now, that’s idle speculation, but when I can cop to is a failure, once again, to look at the reference to the natal chart.  That transit Nike closely conjoined Trump’s natal Ascendant at 29 Leo, as well as natal asteroid America at 27 Leo and natal Mars at 26 Leo.  This sets up Trump to appear (Ascendant) as a winner (Nike) in his campaign (Mars) to run the country (America), a symbol of a victorious (Nike) champion (Mars) for the people (America).

More than that, the natal placements of both points facilitated a Trump victory (as they had in 2016).  Natal Nike at 0 Libra conjoins Neptune on the fulcrum of that T-Square with Donn/Mercury and Whitehouse, while natal Victoria at 10 Capricorn also aligned with the pattern, conjoined Whitehouse.   But what put it over the top this cycle was transit Whitehouse at 4 Libra, conjoined natal Nike and squared natal Victoria.  Transit asteroid Grimm at 6 Capricorn on Election Day, conjoined natal Whitehouse and Victoria, confirmed that going dark (Grimm) was a winning strategy (Victoria) for the presidency (Whitehouse).  Again, the presence of transit asteroid Camillo 3652 (another Kamala referent) at 2 Libra, conjoined transit Whitehouse, led me to put this pairing in Harris’ column, but I failed to place it in the context of the natal chart. 

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Georgia voters queue again after temporary disruptions from bogus bomb threats originating in Russia; asteroid Russia opposed Mercury indicates the interference in US elections, while asteroid Georgia conjunct asteroid Wildcat suggests their chosen target

Before leaving the Nike/Mercury square, I want to remind readers that I did call attention to the presence of asteroid Russia 232 in this pattern, opposing Mercury from 2 Gemini, as a sign of Vladimir Putin’s potential interference in this election.  As matters played out, on Election Day, a dozen polling places in Georgia received bomb threats, which disrupted the vote, but proved to be noncredible.  Both the FBI and the Georgia Secretary of State have determined these threats to have originated from Russia.  And perhaps that attempt is sufficient to explain the various indicators of electoral fraud and shenanigans found in the election chart.  Or perhaps not.

There was one more factor I failed to rate sufficiently; this was the exact conjunction of asteroid Achilles 588 with Demokritos at 10 Virgo. Achilles is a symbol of weakness and vulnerability, and the Democratic losses in 2024 didn’t stop with Kamala Harris. Republicans have regained the Senate, and likely increased their majority in the House of Representatives (with some races yet to be determined, as of this writing, Republicans lead, 206-191). Asteroid Camilla 107 (another Kamala referent) exactly conjoined asteroid House 4650 at 16 Aries suggests that as the presidential race goes (Camilla), so does the House (House). Asteroid Senator 8603 (for the Senate) at 22 Aquarius conjoined Damocles 5335 at 27 Aquarius suggests the looming threat or peril (Damocles) of a GOP-controlled Senate, now made manifest with a 52-44 Republican majority (with one Independent who caucuses with the Dems, and three races yet to be called, insufficient to make up the deficit).

Looking at additional aspects from the transit sky to Trump’s nativity, we cannot overlook the presence of Jupiter, his natal benefactor, at 20 Gemini, conjoined his natal Sun at 22 Gemini.  A wide T-Square with transit Saturn at 12 Pisces and transit asteroid Close 54902 at 21 Virgo gave the appearance of a close contest (Close) for president (Saturn), but with natal Uranus at 17 Gemini also engaged with Jupiter, the upset win (Uranus) went to Trump, who far exceeded expectations.

As well, transit TNO Eris 136199 at 24 Aries was exactly opposed that natal TRIUMF placement at 24 Libra, an indicator that a disgruntled population who considers itself marginalized, disrespected and disadvantaged (all Eris keywords), would prove key to Trump’s success (TRIUMF), as would harping on themes of strife and discord (also Eris).  With transit asteroid Lie 26955 at 21 Libra on the fulcrum of a T-Square, we see the final piece of the puzzle – Trump’s brazen falsehoods and deceptive image of America, eagerly embraced by a populace primed to be conned by that exact America/Bilk conjunction.

These, then, are the defining factors, from an asteroid perspective, that led to Donald Trump’s 2024 victory.  All we can do now is await the fallout.

Alex Miller is a professional writer and astrologer, author of The Black Hole Book, detailing deep space points in astrological interpretation, and the forthcoming Heaven on Earth, a comprehensive study of asteroids, both mythic and personal. Alex is a frequent contributor to “The Mountain Astrologer”, “Daykeeper Journal”, and NCGR’s Journals and “Enews Commentary”; his work has also appeared in “Aspects” magazine, “Dell Horoscope”, “Planetwaves”, “Neptune Café” and “Sasstrology.” He is a past president of Philadelphia Astrological Society, and a former board member for the Philadelphia Chapter of NCGR.

13 comments, add yours.

Karen

Can you tell by his chart if he will leave willingly when his term ends? Will we still have a democracy? It sure looks and feels like this presidency was bought. It reminds me of the movie “Speechless” with Michael Keaton and Geena Davis. They talk about how the wealthy control the vote and make sure their guy wins. It seems like J.D. Vance has had an incredible amount of backing to get where he is.

Trish

Ugh. Maybe part of the country’s karma is to experience autocratic rule. Unfortunately, that leaves those of us who didn’t vote for him in a dark place. I won’t be watching news anymore. Can’t stand seeing his face or hearing him speak. Thanks for all your work, Alex! You aren’t alone. It seems that a number of astrologers and psychics didn’t see this coming. It’s time to end male apartheid in this country when it comes to electing a woman president.

Irmgard Dering

Why am I not surprised? I voted for KH for the Donald would have one vote less!

Charlotte

Groan.
Posting locally, I have been quite rude about you guys there in your UNITED (!!) States of America, along the lines of saying that’s now official: more than half of you are CRAZY.
What might save you, would be to split your country in two: GOP vs DEMS. Then you can have little local skirmishes while the rest of the world can look on and laugh our heads off at you.
Secession, anyone??

Laurien

Don’t beat yourself up, Alex. I think it is very difficult to predict the outcome of elections with or without astrology, especially when they are close. Even though I laughed when a friend quipped ‘the turkeys have voted for Thanksgiving’, I no longer believe that the American people have been conned. I think they know exactly who they voted for but didn’t care. They were focused on their own self-interest and were willing to overlook Trump’s low moral character in exchange for his promises of material prosperity. Many of them undoubtedly share his racist, misogynistic, and authoritarian attitudes and will probably be quite happy to see Trump stick it to his political enemies, transgender persons, and undocumented migrants to name a few vulnerable groups. It is not a nice testament to America or even the human race. I have been wondering if Pluto in Aquarius might bring out the worst in humanity. Here we are. Watch out for those Orangeshirts.

Yolanda

What about the full moon on November 15th conjunct Uranus? The full moon is on Trump’s MC.

Yolanda

Also I heard another astrologer say that this is the last US election as the Earth will change drastically by 2027.

    Charlotte

    I think it’s the Human Design people who came up with the 2027 scenario, and perhaps the Gene Key people as well. I can’t afford the stuff that they offer behind their paywalls, so I’m trying to piece together for myself what they are talking about. I have “heard” that it’s possible that humans will soon stop incarnating and will instead form groups of probably 3-5 or more who will interact with each other – for what purpose I don’t know.
    Are we ready for this?? Perhaps all the astrological pictures, which appear to show a lot of activity among the outer planets, really do indicate that several very big cycles are coming to an end – the end of the world as we know it rather than the end of “everything” that probably started happening in the famous year of 2012.
    You might find farther information on Angelina Fabian’s website, and Palden Jennings has quite a lot to say about the decades to come too.
    I’ve also heard a few whispers about 2027 being pushed back because we are NOT quite ready – whatever “ready” means.

    Please forgive me for my rather odd and rude previous post, Alex. You did fine with your predictions because times are beyond weird right now, and it was a difficult call.

    I’m planning to set up a substack website once I find out how to do it, it’s not in place yet.

Stephanie

Even though my heart is broken, I want to tell you that I have greatly enjoyed your analyses this past year, even this one. lol. I don’t even know what to do with my emotions that vacillate between rage and deep sorrow. Please keep writing Alex for as long as you are able in this upside-down world. Sometimes the worst thing turns out to be the best thing. I hope I live long enough to see that!

Annie'sTruth!

It’s normal to be disappointed when ones candidate is defeated but take it down a notch! SO unkind and untrue to call Trumps base “RABID”! Just because they see things differently from you doesn’t mean they are not sane, contributing, kind, intelligent human beings!

Alex you need to look a wider/beyond the issue of Trump! Have you seen what’s happening in the UK with the over control shutting down freedom of speech?!! If you were a UK citizen you could be in prison now for what
you’ve posted!

Now let’s look a the fact than very few NOTICED HOW THE DNC stripped away our right to vote/caucus and choose a candidate! Everyone was blinded by BAITED via “fear” of Trump NOT MANY NOTICED HOW THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE TO CHOOSE A CANDIDATE WAS STRIPPED AWAY RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES! It was more than a Trump candidate issue…something much bigger is happening here!

The largest voting block in this election were/are INDEPENDENTS! AQUARIUS!!

In Dec 2023 Jim Rickards former CIA said “they” would force Joe out of the presidential race and they did! Who’s been running the oval while Joe’s dementia was kicking in????? So when you talk about Bilk yes America has been Bilked but it’s broader and more sinister plan than just keeping putting Trump in prison. True he’s wild card and the “powers” can’t control him which is a huge a problem for them! Did you see Trumps attorney’s presentation to the Senate? Very enlightening to see what the media and the J 6 committee fed us LIES vs the truth of what Trump actually said to the crowd on J. 6th! Yep we were bilked into sound bites of Trump’s speech…he did encourage them to go peacefully! Look it up IF YOU WANT TO SEE SOME OF THE TRUE BILKING that’s been going on.

The better ? is who exactly is pulling these stunts and why?!

Kamala’s non integrated Sun opposition Aries moon was one piece of her downfall…oh and lets thank Saturn joined Chiron opposite her Pluto Uranus for showing us her true lack of ability to think and articulate an original thought, after all she could not articulate a “plan” for the nation she hid behind the high note of her Aries fire with “JOY” no substance in her campaign. She did toss great word salads though!

Look broader at the huge power play of the old Pluto in Capricorn i.e. DAVOS dictators etc doing everything to hold on to power…Thank you baby Jesus Pluto is leaving Capricorn, the old is out! Kamala being put on display represented the old power play and it failed! Biden’s hit from Algol as well Obama’s too are evident of both men’s heads being filled with snakes/serpents…Snake dens everywhere in Washington power plays. For sure there is deception and manipulation by whom? Once again this is the better ?!

Let’s not skip over Jill Biden’s “F__k U” move! Dressed head to toe in RED as she voted! Think she’s sending a message about what they did to hubby Joe?!!

    Alex Miller

    Author

    Annie, I think it’s fair to say that the “truth” you’ve presented here is selective and unique to yourself. please get some help.

anthony matzat

i wonder if the USA is like France in the 1790’s the last time pluto was in aqaurius 1st they got terror, then the gulotine,the napoleon again, then actual republic after napoleon was dead, but if astrology shows some rhyming trends i feel 2024-25 is a parallel to the 1790’s the way the French gave power to max in the 1790’s seem like how certain folks here in the USA gave power to trump, and if trump read Mary Shelly’s Frankenstein he might not want to be a government version of doctor Frankenstein since the monster he created a outcast came back and killed the doctor, and in America in 2024 the working took out 1st the democrats as a archetype of Pluto in Aquarius, but if trump, and his group isn’t careful in 2025-2028,which if the archetype like working class of Pluto in Aquarius could do some serious kicking out to trump, and his group if they feel he doesn’t meet their demands, and since Pluto in Aquarius in traditional astrology is rule by Saturn could his entering really fiery Aries head butt with

Jose

Any idea of the 2026 midterms?

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